Official Luthiers Forum!

If I could go back to the 1st guitars I made , what would I want to say to myself to make this less stressful and a better end result.
Of all that I learned I would have to say
1 get a mold and use spreaders
I know some out there insist you don't need them and yes some do just fine but if you want to control the neck angle and get the best playing guitar and a repeatable process the mold is paramount to the end.
2 This one is the biggest , and that is to be very careful on how the neck block gets mounted. I have stopped using a spreader on the neck block and now opt to screw through the mold and hold the neck block that way. It makes the neck block firm and give more accuracy to the neck joint.
3 Keep an open mind.
Many times we get into a thought process that closes the outside perspective. Many great ideas came from students that simply ask , why? At the same token , if you have a process that works , make it an act of God to change but be sure the process is a viable one.

4 There are many ways to do this
There are many that insist that the way they do things is the only way. Be careful as sometimes you may be more lucky than good. Early I thought that I had many things nailed but the more I learn , the more I learn I need to learn.
5 Share
Even if you make mistakes , share that info , it may save another from doing the same thing. Often it is the sharing process of a mistake that we learn from another experience.

6 Lastly
This is to be a joy to do. If you feel you are working and not playing . take a break.

In the 15 years I have been doing this , I started as a hobby , got more serious and now I do this for a living. There is no secret , it takes hard work and learning. My wife and I are lucky that we get to do this as a way of life. I have meet many nice people and made many friends. You never know what door opens that has something that can take your hobby to that next level.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Yep on the mold and spreaders. I have used the screw in the mold to neck thing since about 05. I also do the same at the end block. I center the end block to the center of the mold and measure it (or use a piece of wood and mark it) I then adjust the head block at the top to the same mark or measurement of the tail. That way it is easier for me anyway to bowl sand the rims and lining. Once in the mold, not out until the box is done. Seems to keep everything squared up for me in the process.

I learned one thing in the years and that is to plan out the builds and there are steps in the procedure (for me that is) If I get out of whack and the steps out of order, I usually end up with a problem.

Yes there are a lot of ways to do things. But I have seen and read and found out the hard way, there are a lot of ways not to do things as well. One of the biggest I see is the builder who doesn't even have the basics down solid, wanting to get into the more advanced things on the 3d or 4th guitar. Some are gifted and can do this. Most can't.

Thanks, John, I enjoyed reading that.
I've only been building for a few years. First guitar I tried all the fancy stuff- bound fingerboard and headstock, muiltiple lines of purfling etc.
What I think helps me now is to go easy on the decoration and concentrate on the structure. It takes so long to build a guitar that you don't get much practise at some of the process. I think my building is getting faster so I have more opportunities to get it right through trying different approaches to find what suits me best. The fancy decoration will come later

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Stan:
Started building in the 70's (with some missed years between then and now) and one of the first things I realized was one had to have a plan for sequence of events. No need to write down but it must be clear in your head. I have always compared building guitars to a chess game. One must think 5 or 6 moves ahead and also think of the consequences of each move. Super point Stan, new folk take note.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

John Hall: Super post as usual and the same for recent one on side bending. Hope all the new folk read both posts.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Thanks for the guidance and perspective John.

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

It's true about order of process.
A good example is: In my eagerness to make things look good I used to glue the headstock veneer on before setting the neck angle. Once after setting the neck angle I need to plane the neck down- I couldn't do it because the headstock veneer was in the way.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

I like Johns #5. I made mistakes every day and try to remember them. I started to write them on a note pad I keep in the shop and I read through them before each new start. But, if I were to share all my mistakes is be spending all day on the computer and not working creating more mistakes.


Sent from my walkie talkie using Tapatalk

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Thanks John and everyone. I have 4 builds plus a few ukes and find that my biggest challenges happen when I do a step out of order. Great tip on screwing the block in to the mold. Do you use a bolt and have an insert in the mold, or just put a woods crew through it?

I used to use a mold but I don't anymore. No plans on going back. But to each there own and I'm sure if you do use molds it's good advice. I totally agree with the open mindedness. In fact that's why I switched from molds to an open board

A while back I was with my father working on changing the water in his large fish pond. We had buckets after buckets of water when this 8 year old neighbor comes over and watches for a while. He said, "Mr. McKenna why don't you just use the Shop Vac?" Which was sitting right next to us. My dad and I looked at eachother and just started laughing, job was done a short time there after.

I would add to your list one more thing... Have the right tool for the job! Well ok one more... Keep a clean shop and put your tools where they belong.

I could not agree with #6 more!

Beth not John, but have used the same kind method for head to the mold.

I use a screw and just go to the block itself. Sometimes I use a pre routed mortis block and just place an insert in the block. Other times route the block so the screw just goes directly into the block. Just need a screw long enough to go through the mold and thin rim. You don't have to be to aggressive with it, as it is mostly just to hold the block in place and square in the mold.

I have thought of using a bolt that goes into the holes for neck attachment, but just have not done that and use a dovetail many times.

I bolt the end block with a 1/4" 6" long carriage bolt. Keeps things square (or part of my rationale anyway) but also keeps the thing from slipping up and down in the mold while bowl sanding rims and lining, which include the angle on the neck and tail blocks for gluing the top and backs to the rims.

Just to be clear, I did not think of this on my own, but how it was (and probably still is) done when I was at Bourgeois for a period of time and working in the body part of the shop. But since then (05) is how I have done it because it made sense to me.

Great thread, John! Thanks!

I'm still in my first few guitars and my next will be my first with a mould and spreaders. I definitely think that'll help.

I love it when folks tell you something is "paramount for control and repeatability" as pertains to their method, as if folks who don't use the same technique will be having a problem with those aspects, and then warns you not to listen to anyone who insists their way is the only way.
I build with no molds, no spreaders, and have complete control over the neck angle, and have no problem with repeatability.
Great advice all around, but not quite accurate.
It may help you sell some molds and spreaders off your site though.....

The fact of the matter is, no matter what method you use, accuracy and repeatability are an issue for the small builder no matter what.

The most important thing, above everything, is to have a complete method from start to finish that you thoroughly understand all the pitfalls and shortcomings of, and are able to work around it.

Then build a ton of guitars until it's second nature to you.

Then it won't matter whether or not you use an outside mold, inside mold, or no mold at all.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Before I started all this I had the image of a bearded pony tailed luthier serenely carving braces in a quiet low light reverb monastic setting. That seemed attractive.

After 60+ guitars I have found that although one tries to present some variation of that image to the general public there is actually a lot of sweating, swearing, noise, fixing mistakes, and presenting much toxic matter to your respiratory system.

I love it all

The biggest thing I have learned is to be philosophical about mistakes. "Just keep building" No one dies or suffers (only your ego), it's only wood, and as John is fond of saying, mistakes are opportunities. Your skill in any profession is based to a large degree on how you get out of trouble.

We don't improve in a vacuum, thank God for all that share their knowledge especially their complications.

What is the biggest thing I would have done differently? Spent the money to install the best dust collection system I could afford from the start!

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

That was unnecessary

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Clearly you didn't read Number 4 in John's list. In case you were too impatient to read through the entire post before responding, I will paste below:

4 There are many ways to do this.

Glenn

Actually I DID read the whole post, that's what I found paradoxical somewhat. He insisted that you need an outside mold and spreaders for repeatability, warned us not to listen to anyone who insists that their way is the only way, then stated that there was more than one way to do them, after insisting that you need an outside mold and spreaders.



My point is that it's not whether or not you use a mold, it's how well you know your particular process.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Your post was a nasty comment to a very friendly contributor here who doesn't care if you buy his stuff or not. AND he was not insisting on anything.
What an attitude.

My post was NOT nasty, it was observational, in a matter of fact tone.

I think you just want to pick a fight.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

I've got to be honest with you: I also read it that way. I'll accept that it wasn't your intention to give that impression, but that's the impression that your post gave me. The problem with any discussion forum is that it is so very difficult for anyone to express his or her response without being misread by someone else. All any of us can do is try to be mindful of that, and try to proof read our responses before clicking "submit". (which I just did...but this response still might ruffle some feathers. I hope not.)

John...where we're you when I needed you.

It took me a couple of years to learn my lessons the hard way. I use to stress over getting the neck block set properly and then stress again in getting the final neck angle set. Better advice could not be offered.

Thanks to all you give to us at the OLF.

Tom

Hey great stuff John.

On a side note, theguitarwhisperer, to me it also came off in a rude way. Maybe it wasn't meant to be read in that way or maybe it wasn't supposed to be in such a direction. But I have to agree as I read it, it seemed off. As for now let's take it on face value and say maybe we are reading it in a different light as you had intended.

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久保
美智え

People can take it how they will. I find that if anyone posts anything other than glowing praise and agreement, others take offense and go on the attack.

For the record, my only point is that John posted a Wisdom Thread, and some of his wisdom is that outside molds and spreaders are PARAMOUNT for accuracy and repeatability.

I disagree. Accuracy and repeatability come with time and practice no matter the method, and there have been plenty of threads where people have run into neck angle problems using those tools. If you think through and understand your process from start to finish, then you can use an outside, inside, or no mold, and get accurate repeatable results. Isn't that ALSO important for newbies wanting to build guitars to know? If they are drawn to a particular method, they can perfect it?

If he gets a few more sales out of people feeling that those items are absolutely necessary, I don't care. I hope he does well with his business.

I've purchased a few things from John myself. Good product and friendly service.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Thanks for sharing John!

My thing to add is if at all possible don't do this in a vacuum..... Get off your butts, find some local pros, buy em lunch, beer, what ever flips their switch.... and make yourself useful to them so that you can hang-out with them. There is a huge world of Lutherie outside of any forum and you will have your mind blown at what is really important and what is not all that important. In other words your priorities may change, your chops will improve, you will learn real-life, real-time reasons for why some things are done, and above all you will not be breathing your own air anymore.... All of this is said well intended and not as an insult. I am simply remembering my notions that I held dear back in the old bathroom shop and what I know to be true today - very, very different.

Oh yeah, Terry did you ever grow the beard and Pony tail? I'm thinking of doing both and just now realizing that since I'm out of corporate America I can be a bum if I want (not that beards and pony tails make one a bum mind you...).

Whisperer I understood what you meant in your first post and I can also see why others may have taken offense. Again not only is it difficult to know the "tone" of anyone's comments which is why I intentionally use lots of emoticons making me look like a moron.....

The OLF had some years of lots of fighting, conflict, who's in favor and who's out of favor this week and next.... It turned many folks off far more than any of us may realize. My hope is that all of us provide the others with the benefit of the doubt and contribute to a solution to the past dramas instead of being part of the problem, not that any of you are.

We have an opportunity now to return the OLF to the place that successfully launched a new generation of pros making livings in the trade and was also the forum where folks for the most part got along, got out and met each other, and we all benefitted. Factional forums do not contribute to learning Lutherie....

I don't think that you had any ill intent and this is what I mean by giving folks the benefit of the doubt. I also don't think that John was intentionally hawking his wares either.

I make my living fixing stinkin guitars now. It's also pretty easy to say that if I even show up in a thread that it's self-promotional. To me what separates the self promoters from the contributors is just that - do they freely and kindly contribute to the collective knowledge of the OLF.

Both you and John do this routinely and I for one am happy to know you both even though I don't know either of you very well but I would like to.

So it's all good, no one had ill intent in my view, and I also applaud the folks who felt the need to come to John's defense. It's great to see the tone changing back to civility on the OLF and we will all clearly benefit if and when it does.

Not to hijack, but I actually have both, and now the beard gets banded up too to keep it out of the way. If you have long hair, it MUST be pony'd up to keep it from getting caught in machinery, and yanked out. I very intelligently have caught my head not once but twice in the drill press. It hurt.

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Old growth, shmold growth!